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Milsim is a very broad term, you've got the sort of stuff that gunman and ambush adventures do where it's essentially a well organised skirmish with team kit colours all the way up to stirling and tier1 games where you start at midnight with a full brief followed by a dawn assault to take your team's 'FOB' (if you're on the good guy team that is) followed by 36-48 hours of game without programmed breaks and no safe zone. The former I would say is eminently suitable as a starting point for any airsofter, the latter normally takes a bit of working up to as the kit requirement is normally a bit more substantial (Bashas, ground mats, cooking kit, a couple of working guns in case your main one breaks, night vision, etc). That said, the only elitism I have EVER experienced in airsoft is reverse snobbery where guys have had a good old chuckle at the idiot who spent £2k on night vision to play soldiers. Each to their own I say!

Why do people have this belief that TM internals are better? They don't spend more on the internals, they don't spend a great deal, full stop. The only reason they last so long is because the lighter weight of the moving parts puts a lot less stress on everything. You put TM parts in a WE or a SA and they'll break at the same rate the WE or SA parts will. (I've done it) They're not better, they're just under less stress. With a TM you get longevity over all else, they aren't better for range or accuracy, I really don't understand where that myth comes from - TM fanboyism no doubt. TM is better for cold weather performance and gas efficiency, which again is just due to the lighter parts, but in my opinion you miss out on the satisfaction of metal on metal noises and heavier recoil. Plus it just feels like a bit of a con to buy a plastic gun that feels like a £5 springer but spend more on it than I would on something that feels a lot better. TM's plastics are horrible. I like taking things to bits and fiddling with them, so if you're like me, I'd advise getting a cheaper, better feeling, metal pistol, learning how it works and upgrading parts to steel as they fail. The WE also has CO2 mags available for winter use so the TM working better in the cold becomes a moot point. You can also make the WE just as snappy, if not more so, by using a stronger recoil spring and CO2 more generally. Though the snappiness of the recoil is again, in my opinion at least, a moot point, because even when it's less snappy than a TM, it still cycles faster than you can fire it.

Can't help noticing that there are many new players on here, which is always healthy. Got me thinking about some of the prejudices and preconceptions that new players have about milsim games when they have just experienced skirmishing. I must start by saying that I have met some dyed-in-the-wool milsimmers who have very "pure" views about milsims. In fact, we have experienced prejudice from established milsim players who say that you have to be wearing specific real world kit and only 2 or 3 day continuous games are worth doing. Everybody is entitled to their view and there are milsin organisers that cater for this need. Our games were deliberately designed for players who didn't subscribe to this. On our first game, we had people who had never played airsoft before and rented from us. They followed the loadout rules, played as rebels and had a fine old time. They brought their imaginations and really that was all that was really needed. In subsequent games, we find a lot of players have never done any milsim before. Last game, we had more milsim virgins and they are coming back for the next game. A lot of skirmishers get the idea that milsim is deadly serious and you have to salute and call people sir and wear about 2k worth of real steel gucchi gear. T'aint so !!

They do spend more time on the tolerances of all of their guns, and this is true to the point that they do make the most accurate pistols out of the box. People love to hate TM because they think they know something everyone else doesn't and like to feel happy that the WE they were sold over the counter at their local shop is the best there is. Unfortunately, it's really as simple as they know what they're doing, they've done it the longest and they do it the best. When you're so tightly constrained by the Japanese airsoft power limits, you have to be good. Gas efficiency obviously matters a lot there (what with the green gas restrictions), and that's a large reason as to why they use plastic slides. The real fact of the matter is that retailers make a much larger margin of profit on WE and KWA and so selling them is great. Prices on TM guns have always been managed right out of the factory and everyone gets the same price. WE is more popular in the UK because it's cheaper; people like them because they own them and because they use a bit more metal. Let's not forget that the majority of companies simply clone their designs too - that's how good they are at doing what they do. I'd never tell someone to spend more than they're comfortable with spending, but if you have £150 and want the absolute best performance, part compatibility and longevity then TM is who you go for. If you then want to dump a load of money on a metal kit then do so, but you can't have your cake and eat it - metal slides will always slow down your cycle time and produce more wear and even more so if it's a soft metal that will scratch very easily and not stay lubricated for long. When it comes to range and accuracy: Yes, they do. The barrels are generally of a higher quality and the internal tolerances are far greater than those of other brands. They simply are more accurate and do go further. Not by a whole lot, but they do. If it makes you feel happier with your purchase by thinking it performs as well as the original TM design then that's fine, but it's false. There's a reason why the TM Hi-Capa is the most popular competition pistol. If you don't like the plastic feeling then buy a metal kit. And saying TM's plastics are 'horrible' is absolutely ludicrous when they have some of the best looking finishes out there: I'd say Stark Arms is better than WE, but (unsurprisingly) I'd maintain that TM is better than both performance wise.

Here are some photos from our games at the two sites: Kings Langley and Eversley

Thanks very much ill be sure to pick up an ICS version then!.

Nothing wrong with vfc pistols

The BRDM happened just after Op Tailspin and it now lives at Kings Langley and gets wheeled out for special events.

Have you looked in the review section?? There is my g18c aep review

Have you played any games at all yet ? If you are buying a two tone weapon to get into airsoft, its worth playing a game or two to look whats others are doing and formulate what you need. Its easy to buy kit and have to replace it because you dont like it or its wrong for your game style. Just take it slowly. Loadouts get built up - it doesnt happen overnight.

You go to any field and dress like that, the owner will ask you to take that off quickly or will just send you home because his paying customers will be offended and won't come and pay next time.

For me the main attraction to milsim is real cap magazines and friend or foe identification by sight (without bright colours). I just love reload drills.

Pdi W hold is good but don't expect it to lift anything heavier than .30s,even at 380 FPS I struggled to get it to lift it straight. (NB- It might be my hop setup,but a lad I know here in Ukraine was also running a similar VSR hop as I am, only at 450 FPS,also had issues lifting heavy ammo) From what I vaguely remember about what parts am bestest,the Action army hop up chamber has gotten rave reviews and a lot of people vouch for the Maple leaf bucking,firefly bucking is also good. Action army parts have gotten very good recently,much cheaper and equal quality to laylax analogs. Avoid PDi hop chambers as they're a bitch to tune properly. Also check out PDi barrels,get them cheapest from Xfire.org. They're largely said to be the best of the best,especially their tightbores. Stock trigger system on VSRs isn't worth keeping unless you're restricted to 1J builds. Action army trigger is good. Remember you need a 90* piston too but most triggers come bundled with one,at least AA and Laylax do.

Yeah but the rebels were being funded by the Americans at one point. Where did all those AKs come from in the handshaking photo on the M25 thread ??

Get a Mancraft kit if you can. This reads like an advertisement. The fact of the matter is green gas is always susceptible to varying weather. I would never use a sniper rifle powered by anything other than CO2, HPA or spring - consistency will always be sub-par. DMRs, well, that's a different story.

SVD's are lovely rifles and quite a few of our regulars use them. Lots of choice on the market from springers up to the gucchi Real Sword. They are very long to handle so aren't that mobile and they look a bit naked without an optic - the decent Russian clone optics are quite expensive.

sorry - no offense but kinda warrants it a bit:

No there isnt and as an intelligent person you seem to be ignoring the 6 million Jewish people (as well an as gypsies & atrisans) who were killed or worked to death in the camps of WW2 which this person is reprisenting during a "fun" days skirmishing. And you seem to jump on this fact fact as somethig worth noting? I believe your sense of scale in terms of this conversation is out of kilter. For instance during one of our skirmish days a group turned up dressed as power rangers, ironman & Captain America. All in unpadded lycra bright coloured outfits. They instantly became a prefered target for the day, at times being hit from multiple directions all at once. Although you seem a little offended by their suffering they did in fact put themselves in that situation on purpose.Its was top fun. I'm afraid this is simular to what I posted above but the differance is these people were copying fun fictional characters. the OP is asking about a uniform & wearing insignia's of a troop of people who were hand picked from the ranks of the third reich because of their extreme right wing views. Left unchecked they commited one of the most horrific attricities ever recorded in the history of mankind and he is choosing to create this loadout for fun ? Airsoft is a sport where pain is inflicted on your victim. You may be in the wrong sport if you are worried about causing suffering on others (or even worse encouraging others to do so), and you may need some private time to consider if the deaths of millions of men women and children is as noteworthy as a few bruises caused on someone during an airsoft skirmish.

Noticing how lively the Essex thread was, thought it might be an idea to start up a thread for all those airsofters who play around the M25. There are a lot of sites in Essex, Kent, Hertfordshire and Hampshire. The M25 is a double edged sword - its a commuters nightmare but its also a magic carpet for weekend airsofters, enabing players to access sites on the opposite side of London in 60-90 minutes that wouldn't be possible without it. Where do you play ?

People should give it a go before deciding they don't like it. If I took what I heard a couple of people say as gospel I'd still assume using LiPos would run the risk of incinerating my whole town in a firestorm if I look at them funny. Much like any type of Airsoft game i've seen some strange rules though(looking at you 370 FPS, 30 MED DMR or 1 box mag on LMG regardless of capacity). Although that's more the organisers not thinking about things than limited to skirmishes or milsim or any other description of game.

There are some milsim games like that out there. I think the key is that "milsim" is not a fixed prescription. Its just a tag and it covers a lot of different game styles. Another thing is that there is a belief that for it to be good, it has to be held in an MOD training ground, which is not the case. I would say that our rebels probably have the best time of all the game. They dress and act like rebels. Saturday evening gets a bit raucous and next game, one of them is having a tongue-in-cheek pistol duel with one of the PMC guys because they had a (good-natured) online disagreement. It was suggested that rather than keep trading insults and jibes on Facebook, they should just take a pistol each, load it with one round, stand back to back, walk 15 paces, turn and fire. Gives the guys some entertainment round the campfire !!!

Thats a valid point. I don't think we can ever be accused of being Gucci. One of the benefits of staging a game in a run down ex-soviet state - there's a fair degree of freestyle in loadout and weapons !!! We know a few special forces guys, past and present and their "loadouts" are pretty unorthodox. Not what you see on the SF airsoft groups.

I had those kind of preconceptions about the criteria for Milsim, all fed by these being the supposed criteria for awesomeness the 'dyed in the wool' players at my local woodland sites have. They talk/boast about Milsim as if attending one was an achievement or select calling. Because they're the type that talk loudest and most often about milsim, it's their ideas of it that noobs like myself inherit. Then i looked into it online and it all seemed a lot less strict/immersive than this preconception. So I went to one and found the actual rules weren't any where near as strict, was just like any other skirmish but with more complicated game criteria, much longer game time and the site was larger. Games were really well thought out in stages, staff were friendly and great. It was just kind of like an extended super-skirmish. But still, all the people in my assigned squad (and majority there judging by their reactions) seemed to think that total immersion (the 2k of gucci gear and saluting etc as you put it lol) was an ethos that was simply an unwritten rule. Like it was the whole point of attending a Milsim and if you didn't subscribe to it then wtf are you doing here and not at a normal skirmish? No-one seemed interested in having fun or a laugh, just a stern faced mission. There was no 'rebel' team for the one i went to, just nato and pseudo-soviet. It sounds like a good way to cater to those noobs like me who like me only have a camo t-shirt, refuse to walk around in set-formation and don't know the latest nick-names of any of the pointless attacking/defending 'manouvers' that make no difference when performed by unfit/slow people who waste the advantage arguing about which one to use. I commend you for trying to make milsim more accessible, i'll certainly give your site a go and milsim another chance now i'm just about over the jaded urge to put such fools into an actual war-zone and see how many seconds it takes for their underpants to turn into the "correct camo scheme", well perhaps not totally over, i'm definitely grinning rather than grinding my teeth while ranting tho

Oh I dont know, we probably would Mil-sim is not the best of titles is it. Film-sim is even worse = Film Simulation - what does that mean ? I don't think anybody is pretending to simulate anything. They are just airsoft games where teams agree to wear specific loadouts i.e. DPM/Flecktarn etc or MTP etc so that teams are identifiable without having to wear armbands. Instead of lots of little skirmishes with breaks, its usually one backround story with lots of individial and interwoven missions without breaks and where there are lots of props coming into play and actors playing neutrals. The various forces also tend to plan and work together rather than people just running around and doing their own thing.

Aye some of kit I used in Afghanistan would make some dyed in the wool Milsim types choke on their webtex cam cream it was so unregulation. I'm looking forward to trying it out mind you once I have a bit more kit and experience in game.

Our games are weekend games. Bear in mind that we dont allow two tone weapons and we still have a minimum age of 13 when playing with a parent. In saying that, we have people flying in from Denmark and Germany for our next game. We are exporting airsoft product to help the UK with their balance of payments ! not many people doing that!

Bit too far from central Scotland ! But might come down some time in the future for a Milsim depending how long it is

You may know that but most people won't. A sad fact of life is that one always needs to cater to the lowest common denominator, and that's that the SS are naughty people who did naughty things. It's just probably not worth it - save the uniform for a re-enactment day or something.

Although I can see your point and it is valid. The SS was not a fighting unit, they were a close protection unit (At the beginning) and developed into a unit that carried out operations like the taking of asset's & the organisation of forced labour camps. Wearing a soldiers uniform I suppose is not the issue, its the replication and wearing of a uniform of a unit that was specifically used for the liquidation of countries economic structures and the disolvement of a race of people and captive soldiers, for instance Auschwitz-Birkenau was origionally designed to store and liquidate Russian soldiers it was designed to cause maximum suffering to its inhabitants, the idea was to accelorate that spread of infection and disease. In effect the act to create a horrible slow and agonising death for the inhabitants. And the unit used to carry out brutal security to these facilities ? Yes the SS because of their brutal MO. The SS unit was specific unit to fill a specific roll, none of these related to being a fighting role. Although it could be argues that all airsoft skirmishers do in fact dress like trained killers, noone dresses like a operative trained specifically for the mass killings of innocents & defenseless people. I hope i'm comng across as none argumentative, I just want to clarify the differance between the Third Reich and the SS. I hope the thread has become informative and answers the OP's question adequately.

I thought TM but doesnt the VFC have a metal slide?

We have a 16 years old limit unless players come with a guardian/parent but Gunman, our sister organisation have a 13-year old limit I think for their games.

Not sure why you'd go for one over the TM given the price is near identical. They don't perform quite as well out of the box, but the external finish is supposed to be slightly better on the later batches.

Hi everyone just recently started airsofting and im hooked! Have had a fair few sessions now in a local cqb site and just cant get enough of it. Just waiting on my UKARA now and then going to set about heading to a skirmish after I settle on a gun. I was considering a MP5 but my local site recently got a 'CYMA Blackwater M4 CQB' and its seriously tempting me. Would suit the smaller CQB games im mainly playing and give me a bit more reach for when I finally do hit the skirmishes. Would anyone have any experience by chance using that M4? Would it be alright for a beginner? (I've only used their rental AKs and M16s so far. I prefer the slightly more compact feel of the AKs and sights but dam I have got awful luck with their mags so thats put me off them altogether. Budget wise im flexible dont want to go too insane on my first gun though but willing to pay for reliability.) Thanks for any advice and just wanna say the forum is great!

Honestly? Several attempts that failed, a lot of swearing and one final almost perfect one. Like I said, personal preference.

Some sites get a bit twitchy about CO2 guns. You might find some resistance.

conversion kit probably - bummer if ya run dry and wish you had the bolt sniper I look at the sr25 but then I remember mrs duck threat - no promise of what she will do so I pass on that one for now

think that is coz they regard 18+ as being responsible enough to understand med mind you I've seen plenty of irresponsible adults to be fair - not sure where I fit in

Some sites require 18+ for the sniper role.

Loads of noobs at sandpit. thats the impression i had of it before i went. Its noob friendly and the owner/marshalls are alright. Worth going.

One of the joys of our game is that our players love to use Russian based airsoft weapons. We have our fair share of NATO weapons, but many revel in using AK derivatives, of which there are many. Dare I throw another mix into the ring - VSS Vintorez.

get the cocking handle aid for svd and that is one long mofo @ 1.2m scope - if you go for authentic one ain't cheap (wtf - its your toy gun use what ya want) often barrels in there may be 550-590 max but good thing is the bolt svd's use aeg springs aeg svd still come with full auto and semi - well mine did tbh - get an ak with 455-469mm tbb barrel on the 349.99fps limit running well - think you will kick a few M4 ar$es LOL - just beat me to some of the svd stuff

Now that's food for thought. I was thinking a SVD as they are lovely looking and there is a good variety of them about. Cheers for the reply!

Depends on what you plan to do with a DMR. Its a half way house between an ordinary assault rifle and a sniper rifle. If you are going to have it locked to single shot and be the subject of a minimum engagement distance anyway, you could argue that you might as well just go to a full bolt action sniper rifle. If the role of carrying a DMR in a squad appeals, then you might just as well stick to the normal fps limits and make your rifle a cosmetic DMR. An increasing number of sites are asking for "real world" DMRs, so you couldn't just put a high power scope on an MP5. This is slightly contentious, especially amongst skirmish sites. We only do milsim, so we ask players to enter into the spirit by trying to adopt a rifle type that is used in the real world as a DMR. We have a 420fps limit with MED of 30m and rifles have to be semi only.

There is a for sale section on here mate & you'll need to post photos with your user name & date on some paper

Having a LAUGH with that pricing "Used 3 times" so it isn't new then Visible scratches on the magazine http://forums.zeroin.co.uk/showthread.php?261592-G-amp-g-aeg-hb16-mod0-***basically-new-condtion*** £230 Brand new from a retailer http://www.airsoftworld.net/g-g-hb16-mod-0.html

Were you in airsoft zone last Tuesday??? I think I was chatting to you and your mate while I was there.

Are you sure Airsoft is the right sport for you? ?

Got an email from another online retailer, they have the TM VSR Pro in stock for £185. Is it worth the extra £100 to get the TM one and I simply change the spring to get a higher FPS? I take it the parts in the TM one are better and so I won't need to change anything else to get an FPS of around 450?

This is one of those times where you have to carefully consider what other people's feelings and emotions will be, based in your own actions. Choosing to dress as an officer of the SS WILL cause offence to other people as you will be a physical representation of the atrocities that were commited. Even if you don't mean any offence, it will be caused. If I was you I'd do some research into what the SS did and I don't mean just read Wikipedia. Go to the library, get some books out and learn what happens. The SS commited many many attrociates killing innocents, including women and children, simply based on their beliefs. Crimes so horrendous that they cannot and should not be forgotten. I very much doubt you will want to wear an SS Uniform once you see what they represent, regardless of how smart or stylish they look.

I've got a TM HC P90 and never found the trigger an issue as it's not 2 stage. Is an excellent little gun, only issue is it's easy to over-wind and wear out the hi-cap mags and if you do so can get occasional feeding issue requiring you to quickly remove and wind it a couple times again.