Two tone guns

[Masonruss2]

Hi there , I’m 18 and new to airsoft , 

my dad has played air soft for years but his membership run out as he hasn’t gone for a long while . He has a gun that was two tone but resprayed it all black ages ago. He doesn’t have a license anymore , am I able to use this gun as it’s all black for my first gun ?

Appreciate any comments 

thanks 

[Guest]

Yes. He can’t sell it to you, but he can give or loan if to you, colour is irrelevant

[Masonruss2]

9 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

Yes. He can’t sell it to you, but he can give or loan if to you, colour is irrelevant

Oh ok he literally just gave it to me, no money involved. I was just wondering as I don’t have any kind of licence because I was going to buy a two toned gun but he already had one but I looks like a real gun 

[Guest]

Doesn’t matter, you’re absolutely fine.

 

Youll get roasted if you keep calling

it a licence though ?

[Masonruss2]

Just now, rocketdogbert said:

Doesn’t matter, you’re absolutely fine.

 

Youll get roasted if you keep calling

it a licence though ?

Yeahhh I know ?, I’ve just read so much stuff on the use of two toned guns and stuff I just thought it would save me money on buying one. I was going to buy one but paint it black but I heard this isn’t allowed ? 

[Guest]

Buying a two tone and painting it black is a very grey area.

 

Youll find lots of opinions here about it. Just use your dads until you have your own UKARA

[Masonruss2]

Ahh yeahh I will do, will they do checks on it or anything like that at all

[Guest]

Nope, nobody on site will care.

 

DO NOT take it out in public unless it’s in a closed bag and unloaded 

 

Othwrsie, fill your boots

[Masonruss2]

3 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

Nope, nobody on site will care.

 

DO NOT take it out in public unless it’s in a closed bag and unloaded 

 

Othwrsie, fill your boots

Thanks a lot man , I just didn’t really want to be going around with a blue gun tbh , so this has helped?

[Guest]

NP.

 

Nobody but you will care about the colour though. I’ve run around (well limped) with all white guns 

[Masonruss2]

2 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said:

NP.

 

Nobody but you will care about the colour though. I’ve run around (well limped) with all white guns 

Yeahh I just wanted to make sure with all the laws and things also stuff with ukara and stuff like that

[Tommikka]

Any offence was committed at the time that it was painted 

(Modification of an IF into a RIF)

In the first drafts of the VCR bill this was a standalone offence, in the final VCRA it’s arguable that the intent of airsoft skirmishing becomes a valid Defence to the original offence of painting it

Gifting is a grey area - It’s a technical work around normally applied to players under the age of 18 as they cannot purchase either an IF or RIF

 

He could sell it to you if he wishes, as you are over 18 so can legally buy an IF or RIF

You don’t have UKARA membership to document yourself as an airsofter, but if he can satisfy himself that your intent is to play airsoft skirmishing on insured sites then that is all the law requires, and a sale of a RIF is legal

 

 

However nobody will know or care how you came to be in possession of an IF that has been painted.  
 

[Rogerborg]

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

Precise and helpful stuff

 

Word.

 

I'd just note that at this point your only real concern isn't possession of a RIF or how you got it, but possession in public.  Firearms Act 1968 section 19 makes it an offence to possess any imitation firearm (realistic or otherwise) in public, without a reasonable excuse, the proof whereof lies with us.

 

In other words, only have it with you when you're on your way to an insured airsoft skirmish site, ideally with pre-booking, and have the site details to hand.

 

Other than that, you're golden.  Or, black.

[Masonruss2]

3 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Word.

 

I'd just note that at this point your only real concern isn't possession of a RIF or how you got it, but possession in public.  Firearms Act 1968 section 19 makes it an offence to possess any imitation firearm (realistic or otherwise) in public, without a reasonable excuse, the proof whereof lies with us.

 

In other words, only have it with you when you're on your way to an insured airsoft skirmish site, ideally with pre-booking, and have the site details to hand.

 

Other than that, you're golden.  Or, black.

Yeahhh I understand, he literally gave it to me as we will be going to airsoft quite abit now , just thought it would save abit of money. Me and him will both be going so we can get ukara membership. I was just making sure because  it’s painted all black now so looks real. I will be going to a good airsoft site he went to get his in Essex which is properly insured so I should be alright , obviously I will keep it in a bag at all times until we get into the game and stuff 

. appreciate the reply 

[Yesmon205GTI]

Does gold and black count as two tone

 

[Tommikka]

43 minutes ago, Yesmon205GTI said:

Does gold and black count as two tone

 

Gold and black would be ‘two tone’ in the sense that they are two colours.

 

Legally though there is no such thing as a requirement for ‘two tone’ the law requires the IF to be clear or over 50% one of the designated bright colours:

 

 

Sizes and colours which are to be regarded as unrealistic for a real firearm

6.—(1) For the purposes of section 38(3)(b) of the 2006 Act and paragraph 6(3)(b) of Schedule 2 to that Act, the size of an imitation firearm is to be regarded as unrealistic for a real firearm only if the imitation firearm has dimensions that are less than the dimensions specified in paragraph (2).

(2) The dimensions specified in this paragraph are a height of 38 millimetres and a length of 70 millimetres.

7.—(1) For the purposes of section 38(3)(b) of the 2006 Act and paragraph 6(3)(b) of Schedule 2 to that Act, a colour is to be regarded as unrealistic for a real firearm only if it is a colour specified in paragraph (2) or if the imitation firearm is made of transparent material.

(2) The colours specified in this paragraph are—

(a)bright red;

(b)bright orange;

(c)bright yellow;

(d)bright green;

(e)bright pink;

(f)bright purple; and

(g)bright blue.

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Tommikka

[AirSniper]

On 12/10/2021 at 16:28, Masonruss2 said:

Hi there , I’m 18 and new to airsoft , 

my dad has played air soft for years but his membership run out as he hasn’t gone for a long while . He has a gun that was two tone but resprayed it all black ages ago. He doesn’t have a license anymore , am I able to use this gun as it’s all black for my first gun ?

Appreciate any comments 

thanks 

If this is in the UK then respraying the RIF from a two tone counts as a modification and its an offence in itself.

 

You do not need to go through UKARA to get a RIF, if you read up, the item can be GIFTED to you. This is the loop hole that allows jerks to get hold of RIFs and then terrorise people with them, like the idiot pulled over and had a pistol in his glove box, a known criminal with a history of gun offences.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36 
Sub clause
    (c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
 

As well as 
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

which covers the main points of RIF's

 

[Tommikka]

5 hours ago, AirSniper said:

If this is in the UK then respraying the RIF from a two tone counts as a modification and its an offence in itself.

 

You do not need to go through UKARA to get a RIF, if you read up, the item can be GIFTED to you. This is the loop hole that allows jerks to get hold of RIFs and then terrorise people with them, like the idiot pulled over and had a pistol in his glove box, a known criminal with a history of gun offences.

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36 
Sub clause
    (c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or
 

As well as 
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

which covers the main points of RIF's

 

As the OP is over 18 the ‘normal’ get out clause of gifting isn’t required as the separate offence is selling either an IF or RIF to someone under 18

He could legally be sold an IF or RIF

 

The offence of modifying / painting occurred in the past, and may or may not be defendable due to the fathers intent to play airsoft at insured sites.

 

The OP does not need an explicit UKARA membership etc to have the intent to play airsoft at insured sites, but it is up to the seller to be able to defend against VCRA prosecution for that. As it’s father and son then its fairly reasonable for the father to be able to believe or not believe what the sons intent is.

 

Summary:

Modification occurred in the past - if there is an offender then it’s the father

Transfer of a free gift - legal grey area / get out clause

Sale to someone over 18 with the intent to skirmish/play at an insured site = VCRA compliant 

 

[AirSniper]

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present, the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

 

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, AirSniper said:

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present, the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

 

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

But it’s the original owner who committed the offence, not the new one, so it’s irrelevant lol

[Tommikka]

26 minutes ago, AirSniper said:

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present, the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

 

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

Possession is not an offence

 

The only offence is modification under section 36 of the VCRA, and section 37 covers the defences.

The modification in the past could have been fully legally compliant 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

 

It’s not in the same league as ‘receiving stolen goods’ in that the offence can be repeated into the future and by subsequent people 

 

 

 

 

The section 36 offences are manufacture (including modification), import and sale

 

They occur at the time and subsequent changing of hands are either a new offence or are not an offence

 

In the original draft of the VCR bill

was an explicit offence of painting / modifying an IF into a RIF which did not have the section 37 defences 

The final VCR act does not have that as a separate offence - only within 36 which has defences in 37

[Tommikka]

Note that I have also (legally) received stolen goods

 

I buy items at auction, some of which are under police auctions of recovered goods 

 

 

I’ve also purchased RIFs at auction without providing any defence, and I have no intent to play airsoft …. The auction may have committed offences  …. I have two intents which I have not presented to the auction: 

 

 

1) act as a seller and will want to see documentation of a defence 

2) as an event organiser use the RIFs for players within an insured site 

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, AirSniper said:

The law does not distinguish what happened in the past or present,

 

Who said that it did?

 

It does however distinguish between a discrete act, and an ongoing course of conduct.

 

 

2 hours ago, AirSniper said:

the fact is that its a two tone gun that should have those two tone parts replaced with non-tone parts.

 

The fact is that it is not a "two tone gun", firstly because no such definition exists in law.  It's either a realistic imitation firearm, or an (implicitly non realistic) imitation firearm.

 

And it is a realistic imitation firearm.  What it might have been in the past isn't relevant to what it is now.

 

Who is under an obligation to modify it into a non-realistic imitation firearm, and why?

 

What offence is being committed if they do not?

 

Is the offence an action, or a course of conduct?

 

Which Act and Section defines the offence?

 

 

2 hours ago, AirSniper said:

People assuming that because something happened in the past, is exempt, is just not true... 

 

Good job nobody except you is making that point then.

 

We're all going to agree that an offence was committed at the point where it was modified into a RIF.

 

However, it sounds likely that a defence could be adduced, and it's irrelevant to the recipient, and always has been, now or in the past, as they committed, and are committing, no offence by accepting or possessing it.

 

 

2 hours ago, AirSniper said:

In this case, the fact that the receiver of the gift is in the same household would also negate any claims of no prior knowledge that it was previously a two tone.

 

And what's the relevance of that?  No offence was committed by either the person making or receiving the gift through the act of gifting.  No defence is required, not that ignorance is listed as one.

 

The amazing thing is that you do actually know the relevant legislation, which lists the relevant offences, and yet you've gone ahead and imagined up some more.

 

Wait... do you work for the police or CPS?

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Wait... do you work for the police or CPS?

???

 

I’m going to say Traffic, absolutely point blank refuses to accept he is wrong despite copious amounts of evidence saying otherwise 

[AirSniper]

If you live in the same house as someone, then you have prior knowledge, so if you try to claim otherwise and its been established that the item in question was present at a time the accused is in possession, trying to go for a "Didn't know" defence is not going to get you very far and courts look dimly on that as it is if you check.

No, I am not CPS but I have had to represent myself in court 5 times already and won 4 and drew 1.

 

Half my family are in the law business or doctors or professors in things like physics, geological sciences and lots of tech industries, so my head gets filled up with lots of information because if I am to hold conversation with family members, I have to talk to them in their language.

I have also been around the block more than several times and rebuilt my life three times, I am a Taurus, like the colour blue and my bread is buttered right side up and like shooting, breathing and eating...

In the one I drew on, the defence managed to confuse the judge that much that I had no hope of unravelling their twisted method of screwing up the facts. The judge had enough and just threw it out, so it was a draw with a "you're both square" but worked out in the end because I got 4 times the compensation payout.