Sales Dispute - General Opinion Sought

[1967PF44]

Admin - please message me and remove if this is not permitted

 

I don't air my dirty laundry publicly, but I am seeking a general opinion of forum members - even admin input would be appreciated.

 

Very short summary 

 

Item advertised honestly as used, with known faults declared. Priced accordingly with even a mention that the price is reduced to accommodate the possibility of the buyer having to address issues.  Pre sales discussion was described the known faults in more detail and I offered to accept a return if a "major issue" not disclosed was identified.  The only condition (which was very clearly communicated)  was that any request for a return was made before any disassembly took place.  

 

Buyer accepts the deal buys and sends a message that he is delighted with a functioning gun, and even that one of the declared faults was not present. 

 

3 days layer I am sent pictures of a broken internal part allegedly found found when the gun is taken apart by a non qualified tech. (Now I obviously don't know if the part is broken during disassembly or during misuse in the 3 days before discovery - or maybe it was broken at the time of sale? - the gun worked fine on sending and on receipt) 

 

I immediately offered to cover the cost of the broken part, despite the gun having been worked on by a non qualified tech (its a £7 part and I offered £12)  which was initially accepted however the buyer cant source the part and  has asked for a refund and raised a paypal dispute (Im not interested in a discussion about whether or not paypal covers RIFS) 

 

What is the right thing to do - 

 

(A) accept the dismantled non functioning return and take the hit

 

(B) stand by the conditional offer that once dismantled its the buyers problem

 

 

[Adolf Hamster]

Taking what you've put at face value:

You sold a gun, with known faults which the buyer was happy to accept

 

They then either used, or immediately dissassembled it and found/possibly caused a broken part

 

Despite the usual caveat emptor of second hand sales you offered a partial refund, which they refused.

 

If it were me i'd say no to a full refund. Its an understood part of buying secondhand that any pew can have hidden gremlins that even a honest seller might not be aware of, hell even face to face sales where you can test a gun is no guarantee. Some people aren't happy buying something with potential faults and no comeback and choose to avoid secondhand sales for that exact reason.

[Cr0-Magnon]

We're talking morally, right?

 

You've been a little vague about details of described faults and parts etc. Is the part really that difficult to source? If a £7 part is the real crux of the issue and he's already found someone willing to work on the gun (not sure what constitutes a qualified tech), then I don't see why they wouldn't just replace it, rather than push for a refund on something they've already messed with.

[Tackle]

The part that's the issue, essentially the reason for a refund/return request, what is it & more importantly would the gun have functioned with it broken ?. 

I ask as the seller thanked you for a "functioning" gun, if this part is reliant upon in order to function, then I'd be inclined to think it was damaged during the "techs" disassembly ? 

[1967PF44]

4 minutes ago, Tackle said:

The part that's the issue, essentially the reason for a refund/return request, what is it & more importantly would the gun have functioned with it broken ?. 

I ask as the seller thanked you for a "functioning" gun, if this part is reliant upon in order to function, then I'd be inclined to think it was damaged during the "techs" disassembly ? 

 

27 minutes ago, Cr0-Magnon said:

We're talking morally, right?

 

You've been a little vague about details of described faults and parts etc. Is the part really that difficult to source? If a £7 part is the real crux of the issue and he's already found someone willing to work on the gun (not sure what constitutes a qualified tech), then I don't see why they wouldn't just replace it, rather than push for a refund on something they've already messed with.

To answer both questions, yes deliberately vague, but nothing sinister in that for the purposes of discussion, fault was an air leak, and some looseness in the main body (possibly connected to a missing screw or just screws needing tightened)    The part is apparently hard to source - not impossible, I don’t tech, at all, so not sure how accurate that is.

 

in my opinion looking at the disassembly diagram I suspect the gun would not function at all with this part broken.  Again….not a tech, so can’t be sure.

 

my issue I suppose is that I specifically said I would refund if no work was done, I know how tricky these can be from reading about them. And the buyer claims to have detected the potential fault, then instead of asking me first proceeds to dismantle and finds multiple faults. (All minor, missing screw, possible missing small spring, broken £7 part) 

 

if he had contacted me to describe the fault - probably to avoid grief I would have said send it back, and stripped it for parts, it’s worth a lot more stripped than the price I sold it complete

 

there are some good accessories with it . 

[Tackle]

18 minutes ago, 1967PF44 said:

 

if he had contacted me to describe the fault - probably to avoid grief I would have said send it back, and stripped it for parts, it’s worth a lot more stripped than the price I sold it complete

 

there are some good accessories with it . 

Sounds like you've answered your own question, sell it for bits, make more money without the aggro. 

Obviously don't refund until you've got ALL the bits back & you've confirmed they're what you sent out, there are some unscrupulous wankers out there. 

[1967PF44]

Buyer has raised a PayPal case, so I have to let that run its course now anyway. PayPal is very buyer orientated, so I’ll wait until that sorts itself out.

[Cannonfodder]

If the gun worked when you sent it and when they received it then I'd tell the buyer to do one. It sounds to me like they've fucked it and are now trying to blame you for their stupidity 

[Cr0-Magnon]

15 minutes ago, 1967PF44 said:

Buyer has raised a PayPal case, so I have to let that run its course now anyway. PayPal is very buyer orientated, so I’ll wait until that sorts itself out.

 

Well yeah, ie my opening salvo. From a reasonable perspective you haven't done anything wrong. However unfortunately you're totally at the mercy of Paypal.

[Adolf Hamster]

30 minutes ago, 1967PF44 said:

To answer both questions, yes deliberately vague, but nothing sinister in that for the purposes of discussion, fault was an air leak, and some looseness in the main body (possibly connected to a missing screw or just screws needing tightened)    The part is apparently hard to source - not impossible, I don’t tech, at all, so not sure how accurate that is.

 

sub-optimal air seal is something i'd expect on a lot of new guns to some extent let alone a secondhand gun. tbh i'd say a secondhand pew showing up with perfect airseal would be more noteworthy.

 

same with wobble, ar derivatives between the upper and lower or ak frontends getting loose are pretty typical. hard to be more exact without knowing exactly what type of gun it was.

 

 

[Cannonfodder]

Get screen shots of his messages saying the gun works fine and send them to paypal

[Rogerborg]

2 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

Buyer has raised a PayPal case, so I have to let that run its course now anyway.

 

Then you'll have to deal with the situation as it is, rather than as it should be.

 

 

1 hour ago, Cannonfodder said:

Get screen shots of his messages saying the gun works fine and send them to paypal

 

/thread, really.  It sound like you've bent over backwards to do the right thing.  It's a shame for the buyer that airsoft toys are fundamentally fragile, but he chose to take a gamble on a used example.  That's on him, not you.

[1967PF44]

5 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

sub-optimal air seal is something i'd expect on a lot of new guns to some extent let alone a secondhand gun. tbh i'd say a secondhand pew showing up with perfect airseal would be more noteworthy.

 

same with wobble, ar derivatives between the upper and lower or ak frontends getting loose are pretty typical. hard to be more exact without knowing exactly what type of gun it was.

 

 

Sorry- it was an hpa converted M870- that had a slight leak from the macro line- that’s not really an issue though- that was an easy fix - the real issue for the buyer is this internal part- and it’s not that the part is a drama it’s just hard to get 

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, 1967PF44 said:

hpa converted M870

 

If I'd bought an example of the most leaky and fragile type of airsoft gun, with the worst parts support and repairability, that had been custom modified to add more unknowns, I'd be delighted if it shot one BB, once.

 

This is like selling someone a kit-car and them expecting a Honda warranty.

[1967PF44]

Indeed- and was well advised in the both the advert and the pre sales chat that this was the case and that it must go to someone with HPA and tech experience 

[Groot]

I had something similar.

I sold an NGRS. 

When it arrived it was perfect except the power was lower than I had stated. 
I offered the cost of a service by a gunsmith to resolve or a full refund, as long as it was returned in the state I sold it and not opened.

Since it would be such a simple task to up the spring or replace the piston/oring. That if they couldn't do that, there was no way i was going to take the gun back. 
They refused. Opened the gun, couldn't fix and instantly put in a pay pal dispute. 

Because of my offer and documentation. I won the case.

I think in this case, tell them to go f themselves and let paypal sort it out. 

The protection works both ways.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Groot

[Guest KiloGr]

IMO, dont offer refund and stick with your guns.

 

Seller originally said they were happy, thumbs up all around.  You declared all faults you knew, buyer accepted knowingly.

 

Obviously i dont know the faults or whether it was or was not their fault.  It was sold with honest intentions and honest descriptions and buyer was happy.  The fact youve even offered to pay for the replacement part should be enough for paypal to decide in your favor anyhow (Happened to me)

 

I bought a VSR which ended up having a broken part inside the guy said he didnt know about, offered NO refund at all.  Made a paypal case and they refunded me the cost of the part after consulting with the seller.

 

Conclusion, dont give in, keep offering the refund of the cost of the part - likely paypal will decide this is the option for the buyer anyhow, now the case has started if paypal decide a full refund nothing you can do anyway, so may as well keep trying to offer part cost til they make their decision.

[Adolf Hamster]

17 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

it was an hpa converted M870

 

16 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

If I'd bought an example of the most leaky and fragile type of airsoft gun, with the worst parts support and repairability, that had been custom modified to add more unknowns, I'd be delighted if it shot one BB, once.

 

^what 'borg said

[Skara]

Generally when I sell a gun, I take many pictures of the insides + one/two videos of chrono readings and general test fire (dumping a full high cap so I have plenty of footage), plus I save the whole conversation (+ pictures/videos/voice messages). I still have the whole footage from when I sold my Ares Honey Badger, Striker and ARP-9..

 

 

Also I'll be 101% honest, if a buyer comes up with "I sent the gun to a tech and he said X" I demand video proof of the whole inspection process by said tech. Otherwise it never happened.

[Steveocee]

I hope you win the paypal case (although I fear you won't).

[1967PF44]

On 04/04/2022 at 14:01, Steveocee said:

I hope you win the paypal case (although I fear you won't).

Well the decision of the PayPal jury is in !!  “ Based on all the information supplied we do not accept that the item sold was significantly different from the description provided in the initial advert or in the pre sales conversation- any held funds in relation to this matter will now be released” 

[Steveocee]

6 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

Well the decision of the PayPal jury is in !!  “ Based on all the information supplied we do not accept that the item sold was significantly different from the description provided in the initial advert or in the pre sales conversation- any held funds in relation to this matter will now be released” 

 

Congrats dude.

[Rogerborg]

On 29/03/2022 at 13:04, 1967PF44 said:

I immediately offered to cover the cost of the broken part, despite the gun having been worked on by a non qualified tech (its a £7 part and I offered £12)  which was initially accepted however the buyer cant source the part and  has asked for a refund and raised a paypal dispute

 

Buyer now...

 

[Tactical Pith Helmet]

12 hours ago, 1967PF44 said:

Well the decision of the PayPal jury is in !!  “ Based on all the information supplied we do not accept that the item sold was significantly different from the description provided in the initial advert or in the pre sales conversation- any held funds in relation to this matter will now be released” 

Now buy a bloody lottery ticket! 

[1967PF44]

12 hours ago, Steveocee said:

 

Congrats dude.

Thanks, but I don’t think there is anything to celebrate,  things like this happening just cause bad feeling  Not everyone agrees I was right I’m sure, and the buyer certainly won’t buy from me again, and is likely to be put off buying second hand in the future because of his negative experience - he is also left out of pocket because of his failure to properly research his purchase.   But hey that’s second hand airsoft, I’ve bought new that’s broke first outing and got nowhere with a retail warranty claim.   Thanks to everyone for their support however. 
 

Old Boy Out!