Ex attempting to sell me back my RIF - Is this an offence under the VCRA?

[DrFumbles]

If anyone sees my TM MWS being sold please message me on here as my ex has kindly stolen it and she refuses to hand it over.

 

Local to Norwich/East Anglia Areas but could try to sell it further afield.

 

Has an Angry Gun 10.5inch Outer barrel

Clone CTR stock

IMI pistol Grip

Clone Magpul foregrip

Nuprol 4x ACOG

OD colour Magpul on magazine

Nuprol 600XL Torch

Edited December 27, 2022 by DrFumbles

[JimFromHorsham]

If you know who stole it then why not just call plod ? 

[DrFumbles]

4 minutes ago, JimFromHorsham said:

If you know who stole it then why not just call plod ? 

Believe it or not, I was actually getting my belongings from the house with Plod there to keep the peace. I had the reciept, invoice and order confirmation all in my name from my account and they told me it would be a matter for small claims court.

[SBoardley]

Would have been the first thing I’d have grabbed.  You can buy pants in Tesco I believe. 

[Tackle]

That sucks mate, it's a shame there's no precedent can be applied here to enable the plod to retrieve your rif ☹️

[DrFumbles]

26 minutes ago, SBoardley said:

Would have been the first thing I’d have grabbed.  You can buy pants in Tesco I believe. 

She kicked me out at 2am with pretty much just the clothes on my back. 

[SBoardley]

2 minutes ago, DrFumbles said:

She kicked me out at 2am with pretty much just the clothes on my back. 

She’s already sounding like a gem. I believe she has to give you fair notice to collect your stuff, while keeping it in fair condition. Keep any receipts as small claims will need them to award you, and she , in her wisdom will also get stuffed with the court fees too. 
onwards and upwards buddy. 

[Shamal]

Yeah bad news buddy. ☹️

 

Sneak back in and lift some of her gear and use it as a lever.

But seriously good luck and remember it's only possessions.?

Regards 

[Colin Allen]

Bloody hell!  This is better than Eastenders!  What did you do to merit being kicked out at 2AM?

Going back in and lifting some of her stuff is a bad idea; it is theft and could seriously worsen your situation.  Keep the right on your side.

[EDcase]

Yeah, this is a crazy situation but best not do or say anything that could be used against you.

Hopefully you'll be able to resolve this eventually.

[SSPKali]

My first thought is “does she have a reasonable justification for a RIF?”!

 

Hope you get it sorted mate, onwards and upwards!

[Shizbazki]

Assuming the facts we have here:

You were kicked out at 2am

You grabbed what you can and left the house without said MWS

Are now living elsewhere

You have requested that said MWS is returned or arrangements be made for its return but have been stone walled

You have all proof of purchase to back you up that you have purchased the MWS solely for your use only.

You state that old bill where at scene but only to prevent a BOP (Breach of Peace).

 

I will assume you lived with said girl and had your MWS at her home address that you shared.

Now im not privy as to what the living arrangements were (owned, rented, council, who was main tenant holder etc)

Nor do i know how long the relationship was, what stage it was at (just dating, girlfriend, partners, fiancée etc) 

Nor the circumstances as to the falling out

 

In order for your ex to steal it she will have to meet all the points to prove under S1 Theft Act 1968:

Namely appropriates property

Belonging to another

With the intent 

To permanently deprive the other of it

 

So she will have to appropriate the property, well we know it is in her possession and (assume) civil means have been attempted in recovering the property either directly or indirectly (mutual friends or other third parties)

 

We know that you have the proof of purchase for an item that solely belongs to you, was never shared between you such as TV, washing machine, microwave as such items are often seen as part of the household. I would put an MWS in the same line as a PS5 or PC that is solely owned by one party or another.

 

Now comes the hard part, the intent.

Why does she refuse to return?

What excuses has she given?

Has she stated or made claims that she paid part, some, or any of it? 

Does she know its true value?

Does she wish to gift it to somebody?

Has she made attempts to dismantle or sell any part or parts of it

Is she holding it to ransom for something else?

 

The depravation part is essentially stopping you getting hold of it in its original form either not getting it back at all, breaking it, selling it etc

 

My advice to you would be:

a) stay calm and cool, keep any messages between you and her in the text world, do not resort to phone or video calls as they are harder to document

b) stay civil, refrain from using any swear words in messages, as I often tell people you want to look the victim here, then act like one

c) avoid making any threats, this includes direct ones and vague and open ones, believe it or not some people interpret "Watch!" as a threat to kill

d) do not delete messages from you and any from hers

 

Like i said keep yourself the victim with messages like

"look, please I just want my Airsoft gun back"

"ill leave it all and never message you again if you just give me my airsoft stuff back" etc

 

If after all this she still refuses to hand back your property or attempts to sell or destroy the property or claims to have destroyed it.

 

Then pop to you local station or fill out an online form to her local constabulary (I assume Norfolk), explain what has happened, keep it short but to the point. Explain ownership of the MWS, the value of it all and what steps you had taken to retrieve it.

 

End of the day i know you just want your guns back, but if they ask if you want to provide an MG11 statement or assist police substantiating the allegation say "YES" otherwise it gets closed. It will be Domestic Related so you will probably have to answer a domestic questionnaire, just bare with it. GO FULL IN, otherwise you aint gonna get diddly squat.

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, SSPKali said:

My first thought is “does she have a reasonable justification for a RIF?”!

 

Hope you get it sorted mate, onwards and upwards!

There is no need to have ‘reasonable justification’ to possess a RIF

The only directly relevant legislation for RIFs is the VCRA - she has not manufactured, purchased or sold 

 

(If she does put it up for sale then that becomes a different matter on her ‘permanently depriving’ him of his property

 

 

Currently there is nothing to establish that it has been stolen, only that the OP has not been able to recover his property during a dispute.

 

Softly softly is the order of the day, with the advice above

[DrFumbles]

Hi,

 

So some of you may have seen my previous post in General regarding my ex girlfriend stealing my RIF.

 

She has no UKARA Defence and no legitimate reason to keep it. I paid for it using my funds, my bank account, UKARA Number etc. And it's all in my name.

 

She is saying that she will give it back once I pay her £350. 

 

The police have said this is a civil matter so I understand that but they also said it becomes a crime if she makes any attempt to sell it.

 

My question is, if she is asking me for a large sum of money for the RIF is this not technically an attempt to sell it?

 

[SBoardley]

Sounds more like extortion or a hostage situation to me. 

[Tackle]

Certainly sounds like it, question would be do you have the demand for payment in writing ?, text or email, ideally with her reasoning behind demanding payment ? 

If you have, great, take it to the plod, but if it's verbal, then it's just your word against hers & your back to square one. 

If this is the case maybe you should try to initiate comms via text, & carefully get her to admit her reasoning for wanting payment for releasing your own property back to you. 

Unfortunately without the big picture, some may assume that you also played a part in the demise of your relationship, & her actions & demands are either a form of revenge, or her attempt to recoup financial losses she has somehow suffered. 

I'm not judging, just saying it's a bit of a minefield & these situations usually don't happen spontaneously, if there's more to it then you might have to consider that your not gonna get to walk away with no recriminations, financial or otherwise. 

We might see you on judge rinder lol. 

PS pretty sure there's nothing in the vcra that covers this, in fact as daft as it sounds she could demand to see proof of your ukara before handing it over, even if you paid the 350,its mad?

[Colin Allen]

She does not need a defence to keep it or to sell it; however, before selling it to you, she needs to be sure that you have a defence.

Attempting to sell it to you would almost certainly not be a criminal act.

 

Tackle's advice is good, as ever.

Edited January 3, 2023 by Colin Allen

[DrFumbles]

18 minutes ago, Tackle said:

Certainly sounds like it, question would be do you have the demand for payment in writing ?, text or email, ideally with her reasoning behind demanding payment ? 

If you have, great, take it to the plod, but if it's verbal, then it's just your word against hers & your back to square one. 

If this is the case maybe you should try to initiate comms via text, & carefully get her to admit her reasoning for wanting payment for releasing your own property back to you. 

Unfortunately without the big picture, some may assume that you also played a part in the demise of your relationship, & her actions & demands are either a form of revenge, or her attempt to recoup financial losses she has somehow suffered. 

I'm not judging, just saying it's a bit of a minefield & these situations usually don't happen spontaneously, if there's more to it then you might have to consider that your not gonna get to walk away with no recriminations, financial or otherwise. 

We might see you on judge rinder lol. 

PS pretty sure there's nothing in the vcra that covers this, in fact as daft as it sounds she could demand to see proof of your ukara before handing it over, even if you paid the 350,its mad?

 

Hi, thanks for the advice. 

 

I actually have it from her in messages multiple times.

 

In regards to the relationship without getting into too much Jeremy Kyle Material. She snooped and found a draft email I was writing up regarding her controlling and coercive behaviour towards me as a method my GP and Wellbeing recommended for me to cope with my situation. It was never intended to be sent or read by anyone else. So I guess I had a part to play in the demise of the relationship.

[Tommikka]

4 minutes ago, DrFumbles said:

 

…..regarding her controlling and coercive behaviour towards me ...

I think that this answers many questions about the whole situation 

 

It could be time to consider what actual value RIFs have against your own health

[Emergencychimps]

Tricky one, difficult ex's are problematic. 

 

https://mensbreakup.com/ex-girlfriend-wont-give-stuff-back/

 

Quick Google brought this article up, whether it's airsoft stuff or not it's your property and this guide has some useful info. 

[Tackle]

Wow, @DrFumbles, firstly thank you for sharing that, can't have been easy, but it does put a whole new context on the situation.

The fact that you have her demands on text etc, plus the fact you have previously discussed this with your gp & other healthcare professionals is a massive positive, you can take this information to the police, in fact there's nothing to say that your not entitled to insist they take action against her in regards to "controlling & coercion", which could have numerous outcomes, possibly giving you an opportunity to return to the property under escort to retrieve what's rightfully yours (to that end I would consider putting together a list of everything that is solely yours, jointly owned items may not be touched at this time without shit kicking off). 

Allowing the police to act may also convince her to release your stuff, as a start to show contrition for her previous behaviour, something any legal representation would advise her to do as cooperation goes a long way if done in the early stages before cps decide on charges. 

As for you contributing to the break up by essentially keeping a confidential "diary" within secure email drafts, NO FUCKING WAY IS THAT ON YOU, it just highlights the extent she was going to in order to maintain control, & is another fact that supports your case for the police to act. 

Good luck mate. 

[DrFumbles]

Want to say a big thanks to @Tackleand @Emergencychimpsin particular for the help and advice.

 

I retrieved all my other belongings with the police on the 27th December, however the RIF Is the only item she kept from me. 

 

Unfortunately she knows how important that RIF was for me as it kept me in the sport and the sport in turn allowed me a healthy and physical output for my mental and physical health. 

 

Because we have a 2 year old son together and the police are at least aware of the Domestic Abuse from her I haven't outright made a complaint to the police, more so because I have no real proof and evidence to back me up, it just descends into a he said/she said situation.

 

I was just hoping the Legal side of things regarding RIFs would have allowed me to get it back more than anything.

[Rogerborg]

On 27/12/2022 at 19:49, DrFumbles said:

She kicked me out at 2am with pretty much just the clothes on my back. 

 

I guess she found the receipt then.  

[Rogerborg]

20 hours ago, DrFumbles said:

She is saying that she will give it back once I pay her £350

 

She's already stolen it from you once, she'll just keep the money if you hand it over first.

 

So arrange to pick it up, ask to see it before handing over the cash, then just take it off of her one way or another without paying a penny.  Tell her it's a civil matter.

 

Forget the VCRA offence. The police won't be remotely interested, and even if they were, her defence is that she's selling it to you for use in airsoft skirmishing. The CPS won't touch it.

 

Sorry to hear that she found the receipts.

[EvilMonkee]

She has appropriated it already via the act of selling it, she treats it as her own property, and also by selling it shows intent to deprive you of it.  Bad darts from the cops to be honest, they will just have wanted to get the incident closed down.  Best way to deal with it is to phone again, report a theft and also complain to the Inspector of the shift that attended about the lack of action from their officers.  This is just based on what you have told us.