Selling without a defence.

[Call23]

Hello,

As the title says I’m wondering if I can legally sell RIFs without a defense. My dad left me some and I was thinking about selling as I’m not using them. Thanks for your time and appreciate any help you can give. 

[Shamal]

Yes mate go for it.

Don't sell to under 18 and you should really check that the buyer has a defense or is a legitimate user.

Just don't sell to anyone who you think might be a dickhead and might go roaming the streets with it.

 

Regards 

[Call23]

That’s good news. Thanks for letting me know. 
 

Kind Regards 

[Rogerborg]

Well, legally speaking you do need a defence[*].  Practically speaking, don't flog them to Big Baz behind the pub.

 

[*]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/37

 

(a) the purposes of a museum or gallery;

(b) the purposes of theatrical performances and of rehearsals for such performances;

(c) the production of films (within the meaning of Part 1 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (c. 48)_see section 5B of that Act);

(d) the production of television programmes (within the meaning of the Communications Act 2003 (c. 21)_see section 405(1) of that Act);

(e) the organisation and holding of historical re-enactments organised and held by persons specified or described for the purposes of this section by regulations made by the Secretary of State;

(f) the purposes of functions that a person has in his capacity as a person in the service of Her Majesty.

 

or, added later, "permitted activities", including "airsoft skirmishing", particularly where third party liability insurance is held.

 

You'll hear people talking about "UKARA", which is really just a central list of people who have site membership.

 

Personally I'd be happy selling to anyone who can tell me where they play, and show any sort of evidence of it.

 

 

[Tommikka]

6 hours ago, Call23 said:

Hello,

As the title says I’m wondering if I can legally sell RIFs without a defense. My dad left me some and I was thinking about selling as I’m not using them. Thanks for your time and appreciate any help you can give. 

As with the other posters a ‘Defence’ is required under the VCRA for the sale of RIFs but the definition of ‘defence’ in the act isn’t necessarily the English language  definition 

 

As a seller it is you that has responsibilities under the act, and in the rare possibility that you could find yourself in court you would need to (English language definition) defend that you reasonably believed the buyers intended use fell within the VCRA defined defences.

 

It is not a legal requirement for the buyer to have a valid UKARA number.  Only the various purposes quoted above.   If you can show that you reasonably believed that the buyer intended to play on an insured skirmish site and is aged over 18 then you are legal

 

The ideal is to ask for UKARA details (if you can check them of course), but their social media account full of airsofting photos, or an established member of this forum would be good enough 

A social media account full of chav posing outside the off licence would not be considered ideal 

[Call23]

Thanks for the replies and feedback. Must apologise as I didn’t phrase my question properly. I’m aware of how the VCRA affects purchasing. I Should’ve asked if I personally need a defence to sell. I’ve never held a UKARA no. or anything as I never purchased the RIFs and one isn’t required to own them. Will that be a problem if I sell? or does VCRA only apply to purchasing. Thanks again

[Tommikka]

2 hours ago, Call23 said:

Thanks for the replies and feedback. Must apologise as I didn’t phrase my question properly. I’m aware of how the VCRA affects purchasing. I Should’ve asked if I personally need a defence to sell. I’ve never held a UKARA no. or anything as I never purchased the RIFs and one isn’t required to own them. Will that be a problem if I sell? or does VCRA only apply to purchasing. Thanks again

No problem - you don’t require anything as the seller of a RIF

[Rogerborg]

5 hours ago, Tommikka said:

No problem - you don’t require anything as the seller of a RIF

 

Errr. You do require[*] a defence to sell a RIF.  You don't require anything to purchase, or attempt to purchase one within the UK, as long as you're 18+.

 

Practically speaking, it's up to the buyer to provide the seller with some evidence that they can adduce as their defence, even if it's just a declaration about the intended purposes.  But it's the seller that requires that defence.

 

Pragmatically speaking, nobody is going to be done for a private sale of a RIF.  If the tools of the State ever do take an interest (and they don't seem inclined to) it'll be easier for them to go after retailers.

 

[*] Legally speaking

[EDcase]

Yep, If I sell to someone without UKARA I ask them to agree in a message that they will use it for airsoft purposes only and no illegal activity.

[Call23]

 

10 hours ago, Tommikka said:

No problem - you don’t require anything as the seller of a RIF

 

4 hours ago, Rogerborg said:

 

Errr. You do require[*] a defence to sell a RIF.  You don't require anything to purchase, or attempt to purchase one within the UK, as long as you're 18+.

 

Practically speaking, it's up to the buyer to provide the seller with some evidence that they can adduce as their defence, even if it's just a declaration about the intended purposes.  But it's the seller that requires that defence.

 

Pragmatically speaking, nobody is going to be done for a private sale of a RIF.  If the tools of the State ever do take an interest (and they don't seem inclined to) it'll be easier for them to go after retailers.

 

[*] Legally speaking

Contrasting answers here. Interesting to hear you don’t need one to purchase as I thought you definitely did. Am I misunderstanding what you said there?

 

Looking at the law it doesn’t say much about private sellers so do I need to go and get myself a defence before I sell (don’t really want to as that costs money hence why I’m not using them).

 

I know whomever I sell to needs to give me their defence to purchase from me. As I understand I don’t need to own a UKARA or something in my name to sell. Is this correct?

 

Thanks again everyone. 

[Guest]

The defence a seller needs is to ensure that they believe the purchaser will use the toy gun at an insured airsoft site playing airsoft games.

[Tommikka]

3 hours ago, Call23 said:

 

 

Contrasting answers here. Interesting to hear you don’t need one to purchase as I thought you definitely did. Am I misunderstanding what you said there?

 

Looking at the law it doesn’t say much about private sellers so do I need to go and get myself a defence before I sell (don’t really want to as that costs money hence why I’m not using them).

 

I know whomever I sell to needs to give me their defence to purchase from me. As I understand I don’t need to own a UKARA or something in my name to sell. Is this correct?

 

Thanks again everyone. 

It’s the fine print, so can look contradictory

 

You don’t require any UKARA membership or special status to sell

 

But as seller it is you who are responsible under the VCRA - which means you the seller are responsible for ensuring that they have a valid VCRA ‘defence’ being their purpose for buying a RIF

 

The buyer has no legal responsibility under the VCRA, but a seller should only sell to a buyer under one of the VCRA defences 

 

 

Cosplay is not a defence, but there is a dodgy cosplay insurance that a retailer put together 

 

UKARA is a defence, which a buyer may have.

Anything else that they can present to you which you are willing to accept that they are an airsoft player will do - it’s unlikely but it someone caught a dickhead, told the police it was bought from you and a prosecution takes place then you may have to present your case as to why you reasonably believed they are an airsofter intending to play on an insured site

 

 

Other defences exist  such as museum, theatrical TV & film (but not YouTube prankster)

 

 

[Call23]

4 hours ago, Tommikka said:

It’s the fine print, so can look contradictory

 

You don’t require any UKARA membership or special status to sell

 

But as seller it is you who are responsible under the VCRA - which means you the seller are responsible for ensuring that they have a valid VCRA ‘defence’ being their purpose for buying a RIF

 

The buyer has no legal responsibility under the VCRA, but a seller should only sell to a buyer under one of the VCRA defences 

 

 

Cosplay is not a defence, but there is a dodgy cosplay insurance that a retailer put together 

 

UKARA is a defence, which a buyer may have.

Anything else that they can present to you which you are willing to accept that they are an airsoft player will do - it’s unlikely but it someone caught a dickhead, told the police it was bought from you and a prosecution takes place then you may have to present your case as to why you reasonably believed they are an airsofter intending to play on an insured site

 

 

Other defences exist  such as museum, theatrical TV & film (but not YouTube prankster)

 

 

That was my understanding of it all as well. Thanks for the clarification. 

[Rogerborg]

17 hours ago, Call23 said:

That was my understanding of it all as well. Thanks for the clarification. 

 

It is a rather muddled situation. The seller (you) is the one committing the offence, so needs the defence. But it's the buyer who typically provides the seller with the evidence that they can use to adduce that defence if it ever becomes an issue (which it won't).  So we tend to talk about "the buyer needing a defence", because that's the practical situation, when what we really mean, legally speaking, is that the buyer needs to enable the seller to have a defence.

 

Buying (or attempting to buy) a RIF within the UK isn't an offence.  If you can find someone who'll sell one to you, no questioned asked (2nd hand sales, for example) then you're fine to go ahead and buy without any worries.  However, if you import a RIF (or cause one to be imported), manufacture one, or modify an IF into a RIF, that is an offence, and then you (the buyer/manufacturer/modifier) need to provide a defence for your actions.  For importing, UKARA is the best known and easiest way of doing that.  For manufacturing or modifying (or private sales), well, see if you can find anyone who will ever care.  As long as the use is sensible, it'll never be an issue.